Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: CO2 management

Germany heads into a Kyoto instigated power shortage - and it is darn cold there in the Winter, not to mention - how will they be making Al Gore's next Mercedes Benz ???  Ken 
http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/03/18/carbon_capitol/

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On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 7:58 PM, ken shock wrote:
Dave

It really is not too relevant to me that the President of the Czech Republic has a slight misconception* regarding a direct link between CO2 and advanced living standards. What is so very much more important to me is whether our civilization is being upended by propaganda, incomplete and or faulty science, lies and deception shown to our school children etc etc.........ETC ! * http://honestmoneyreport.com/forum/index.php?topic=3842.msg25851#msg25851

When you and I met at the Honolulu airport last year, I considered it auspicious. In particular, it was your statement that the climbing CO2 measurements on Mauna Loa and the rate of their change implied that "we were stuffed". I realize that the fact of your early involvement in these measurements is important to you - and I believe the data is important, and so I have endeavored not to offend.

My own view is, however, that we are totally failing to allow science to perform if rightful function in our society. For persons of substantial political power, like Al Gore, to brand scientific discourse with which he does not agree - heresy, and to recommend punishment, is a huge problem for me. In fact what the major media have done with situation definitely infers that a predetermined theorem was set to be rammed down everyone's throats. THIS IS NOT SCIENCE - it's propaganda !

If you have reviewed my 45 page thread here : http://honestmoneyreport.com/forum/index.php?topic=3842.220  you are aware of the depth and breadth of the dissenting view. In the attached correspondence please find additional viewpoints of interest. I would appreciate your comment.

We are traveling at warp speed in the wrong direction, in my view, and those of us blowing the whistle to stop this express train are gathering the facts we need to place this matter before a court of law. In fact, likely several courts of law could be used simultaneously. In this manner a hopefully neutral venue will be provided for the courageous scientists, who resisted this railroad job, to present their case for the whole World to see !  I believe that this will be a civil case, seeking substantial monetary damages on behalf of a class of people - The Citizen Taxpayers. Who will get sued, lying politicians, media moguls and "scientists" who falsified their "studies".

Already $$ billions were squandered on computer modeling systems which are now seen to have been demonstrably misconstrued and mismanaged. Deliberate lies and misinterpretations were made to promote a hoax. Great gobs of precious capital have poured into the hands of that pack of thieves at the UN - etc.

Again, I would welcome your present thinking on the matter at hand........Regards.......Ken Shock, Physicist,
Captain Cook, Hawaii
Russell, New Zealand

ps: CO2 is the breath of life......... http://www.brookesnews.com/080402greenhouse.html
                                                     http://www.brookesnews.com/081003carbonviv.html
                                                     http://carbon-sense.com/category/warmer-is-better/

Warm, Watered and Well Fed is Better

The Carbon Sense Coalition today claimed that all government efforts to stop global warming and cut carbon dioxide emissions were anti-life and against the interests of mankind.

The Chairman of "Carbon Sense", Mr Viv Forbes, said that this generation of foolish politicians are the first in history to complain about the beneficial effects that have always accompanied the periodic but short warm eras that punctuate earth's history.

"The human story is intimately tied to the grand cycles of climate and the Chicken Littles should study these before squawking.
(see link above for balance of article)






---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bob Beatty <BobBeatty@bosmin.com>
Date: Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: CO2 management
To: JohnMcRobert <info@copyright.net.au>
Cc: ken shock <sailboi@gmail.com>, Scott <ssshock@exponent.com>, Viv Forbes <vforbes@bigpond.com>, Ronald Kitching <ron.kitching@rahco.org>


Hi John,
Oops, I got my fauna and flora mixed up in the opening paragraph.

I saw a satellite image of the Great Lakes region which showed cloud plumes forming down wind of one of the large coal fired power stations. The commentary was to the effect that farm land down wind of the power plant commanded a premium value. No doubt the additional rainfall was also charged with dissolved CO2 out of the plant further enhancing the fertilization.
This method of distribution must be happening everywhere without any human intervention. You are aware of reports that tree rings down wind of the Tarong Power station are wider than similar trees growing upwind. QED.

My concern relates to Lance Endersbee's Figure 2 graph. This shows that when the sea surface temperature drops (his Figure 1 shows last year it dropped dramatically) then atmospheric CO2 levels will also drop. Figure 2 can be extrapolated to show that if the moving sea surface temperature average drops by 1.2oC, the atmospheric level of CO2 will decrease from the existing 383ppm to around 200ppm. As I understand the literature, 200ppm is disaster territory for most land flora. Crop failures and desertification all around.

If the sea cooling is associated with advancing glaciation particularly in the northern hemisphere, we have a doomsday scenario. The CO2 will mostly be in the sea which is where the bio growth will be. The future of our civilization will depend on how effectively we can adapt to harvesting the sea.
Cheers, Bob
--
JohnMcRobert wrote:
A level of 1,000 ppm CO2 is apparently successfully used in greenhouses and that is the level which should be aimed for to stimulate plant growth with no adverse side effects to animals.

Putting anything anywhere should be done with appropriate controls. 100% water in a valley can also result in severe physiological changes for ABF.

Cheers
J



on 22/3/08 8:26 PM, Bob Beatty wrote:

Ken,
There is little doubt fauna flora growth of all kinds can be enhanced by adding CO2. The concerns I have with this approach are twofold:
A) CO2 tied up in fauna flora is not tied up indefinitely it is only parked temporarily (I note the request below was not to sequester CO2 but to "manage" CO2. The current systems manage it pretty well do they not? Why the need for change?).
B) CO2 collected say in a valley can get to lethal levels pretty quickly for the passing air breathing fauna (ABF). We must not lose sight of the fact that CO2 is a waste product for ABF. Increasing levels of CO2 result in physiological changes that include acidosis, dyspnea, headaches, bone loss. These effects kick in from 7,000ppm and become very severe at 70,000ppm.


Pumping CO2 into a valley will inevitably lead to leakage and is unlikely to provide a satisfactory solution to disposing of large quantities of CO2.

However, there seems to be a much better alternative.
Both fauna and flora in the sea benefit from increasing levels of bicarbonate ions which forms by dissolving CO2 in water. From what I can determine the sea is effectively a bottomless pit for absorbing CO2.
The following web references are worth reading in appreciation of this point:
1) http://www.grisda.org/origins/06088.htm
Quote "Experiments that my graduate students and I have conducted indicate that one can, at least temporarily, nearly double the rate of coral growth by raising the temperature 5ēC or by increasing the carbonate ion content of sea water. What relationship this might have to past rates of coral reef growth remains to be investigated. Nevertheless a number of facts indicate that coral reef growth rates may be much faster than some of the slower estimates reported in the literature. Our present knowledge does not preclude rapid rates of development; some factors definitely facilitate it."
2) http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0024-3590%28199905%2944%3A3%3C716%3ABAPCG%3E2.0.CO%3B2-P&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage
Abstract. The addition of 2 mM bicarbonate to aquaria containing tropical ocean water and branches of Porites porites caused a doubling of the skeletal growth rate of the coral. Nitrate or ammonium addition (20 uM) to oligotrophic sea-water caused a significant reduction in coral growth, but when seawater containing the extra bicarbonate was supplemented with combined nitrogen, no depression of the higher growth rate was evident. We infer that (1) the present dissolved inorganic carbon (DIC) content of the ocean limits coral growth, (2) this limitation is exacerbated by nitrate and ammonium, and (3) adding DIC increases coral calcification rates and confers protection against nutrient enrichment.
3) http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=207
Growth rates of aquatic plants are strongly correlated with availability of carbon and the plant's affinity for carbon uptake. Studies have shown that plants with the greatest carbon affinity have the greatest growth rates, whereas those with lower carbon affinity have correspondingly slower growth rates. Because carbon availability is normally the limiting factor to growth, addition of CO2 to a planted aquarium will always result in large increases in growth (assuming other critical elements are not lacking).
4) http://epswww.unm.edu/facstaff/zsharp/505/carbonates2.htm
Essentially all of the productivity occurs in the shallow ocean.  Light carbon is preferentially incorporated into organic matter, enriching the residual dissolved carbon in 13C.  If the organic carbon in the shallow ocean was isolated from the deep ocean, it would eventually oxidize, with no net change in the d13C value for the TDC of the shallow ocean.  In fact, there is a very efficient mechanism for removal of organic carbon from the shallow to deep ocean, called the biological pump.  When organisms die, they fall through the thermocline into the cold deep oceans by gravitational sinking.  Thus, there is a constant removal of light carbon from the surface ocean leaving the residue enriched in 13C (figure).  This steady state enrichment is called the Œbiological pumpš.
5) http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v201/n4917/pdf/201416a0.pdf
Two main pathways of carbon dioxide fixation have been demonstrated in marine invertebrates, the carboxy-lation of propionate to form succinate in the oyster1, and the carboxylation of pyruvate to form malate in flat-worms. The presence of enzyme systems capable of using carbon dioxide for synthetic purposes has been established in representatives of 14 phyla of animals, and many micro-organisms. Evidence continues to accumulate in support of the idea of Krebs that carbon dioxide is an essential compound in the metabolism of all cells. It has been stated often that if the citric acid cycle is to provide intermediates for biosynthetic reactions, fixation is necessary to replenish the supply of acids.


I guess the most relevant information on this subject of recent time is the paper by Em Prof. Lance Endersbee
http://www.ilovemycarbondioxide.com/pdf/Global_climate_change_has_natural_causes.pdf
In particular his Figure 2 shown:-

What this tells us is that sea temperature is the ONLY driver of atmospheric CO2 levels. Everything else is interesting/costly/time consuming, but only a side show.

Interestingly, Endersbee says there is evidence that surface sea temperatures are starting to fall again. This should result in lower Mauna Loa CO2 readings in the near future.

I am waiting with interest.

Best regards,


-- 
Bob Beatty BE FAusIMM(CP), Principal, BOSMIN
76-78 Hayes Ave, Camira 4300, Qld, AUSTRALIA
WWW: http://www.BOSMIN.com